Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of If I'm Honest with Julia Landauer. Today we had an international guest, and Celine Ivari is a scientist and founder of Wholyme, a London-based self-care brand built around intention, prevention, and long-term well-being, with botanical formulas that prioritize care before damage. A caregiver from an early age, Celine's fascination with the human body led her to earn a degree in human biology as well as a degree in genetics of human disease. Following her studies, Celine worked in medical education for pharmaceutical companies, and shortly thereafter co-founded Meshkati Hair Clinic. Celine launched Wholyme in 2020 with a line of botanical products designed to support muscle and joint recovery. Since then, she's grown the brand into more than 1000 stores across the UK, including Boots and Whole Foods. And in 2026, brought Holymeat to the US. She has built her reputation by challenging reactive health norms and advocating for a more intuitive, care-first approach to long-term well-being. This was a really informative and very interesting conversation. One, Celine goes into incredible detail about how you manufacture products, how you get them through the supply chain, things you have to watch out for, compliance issues that they had to deal with. She also talks about how she evolved from a product that was originally for her mother to then one that was more universally applicable to every everyone who needs some care. She also was really generous with explaining how her mindset shifted throughout her career and how she took leaps of faith even when she was very scared. And she gives us an idea of where she wants to take her brand, how she has opened up as a more prominent face of the company as the founder, and she shares a lot, a lot of wisdom, and she brought us some goodies, so it was very exciting. And I hope you enjoy listening to this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. Celine, thank you so much for joining me on If I'm Honest. Thank you for having me. You're so welcome. Welcome to New York. You just flew in from London, right? Yes, that's right. Yesterday. Okay. Okay. I love New York. It's just something about the city. We were talking before we started recording that you you were here for a few years when you were like three and four, and that you actually remember being in the city with your sisters. Like, is there a strongest memory that sticks out? I mean, it's a very funny one. Yeah, tell me, tell me. My sister Corrine, who's one year older than me, and I were obviously so three and four or four and five at that time specifically. I can't remember, and we locked up our nanny in a bathroom. Oh my goodness! Or in the kitchen. I don't remember where. Somewhere in the apartment. And Corrine and I were watching TV, and I think we saw like Celine Dion had like cut her hair, okay, and so that gave us the idea of like we should cut our hair. Oh my gosh! And so we took scissors and went to the bathroom and just chopped away at all our hair. Oh my goodness! And I just remember this being genuine. Like she probably did like a big circle here. I had like many different layers. Wow! And I remember her being like, "What do you think? And I'm like, "I love it. You look amazing. Oh my gosh! And she was like, "You look incredible. We love a supportive sister. And then my so I'm one of five. My eldest sister arrives, and she's like, "What did you girls do? And we're like we cut her hair, and she's like, "Mom's gonna kill you. So she went and found stockings, and shoved our heads in stockings. No way, genius idea! Oh my goodness! And then my mom arrived, and she's like, "Why do you have stockings on your head? And she starts like running after us to get the stocking out of our hair, and she did, and she was not happy. Oh, she wasn't happy. Well, I was gonna say, like, it's a really funny memory. It's a great memory, and I guess also, like, I'm not a parent, but like, as a parent, what are you, like, what are you gonna do in that situation? It is what it is, right? Like, maybe you try to even it out a little bit. I guess you do, but like also my poor mother with like five daughters. Yeah, in New York, and she was working, and you know, the other day I I told her I I just have a lot of memories of you screaming at me in New York. I don't have a lot of memories of you like hugging me, and she was like, just imagine how difficult you are, you know what? Moms have a really great way of telling it like it is in a no bullshit capacity, and especially as we get-I don't know if this is the case-but as I grew up, whether it was like you know going from a kid to a teenager, a teenager to young adult, like my mom's tolerance for bullshit went down, and she was just much more real talk with me, which was a humbling experience. I think when you have five, you don't have time for sugarcoating. Oh yeah, no, totally. And so your mom, speaking of her, is a large part of why you're here today, and with the company that you started, , and. It was you founded this this these relief products essentially is that a fair descriptor of them to find better ways to care for your mom and eventually that became your relief bomb so can you tell me a little bit about the origin story of Wholyme and the relief balms and obviously it's in retrospect yeah I recognize a lot of, you know. It's funny how life does that, right? You can look back and go, yeah, I can trace everything to this moment. Yeah. And for me, when I was nine years old, my mom's the first time she had this flare up in a condition called psoriatic rheumatoid arthritis, which is a autoimmune chronic condition, she had that, but like a very severe kind, and it was it's it's really heartbreaking to watch someone you love struggle so much. Yeah, and all I wanted to do was help her, and so I I think I took on this identity of being a caregiver really at that age, and it very much defined the rest of my life, and it made me super curious about the human body, its abilities, its vulnerabilities, like what was happening. And so I went on to study human biology, and then genetics of human disease, and then I worked in medical education for big pharmaceutical companies, and I think that was all fueled by that experience, right? And it actually, her condition had gone dormant for like well over a decade. Oh wow! And it came back with a vengeance later in my life, and I remember doing a lot of research for her and finding like a lot of evidence for these botanical ingredients that have relieving properties, anti-inflammatory properties. There was a lot of clinical evidence for that, but you know, looking at formulations in the market, there were trace amounts of them diluted in. I want to careful with My language diluted and really useless things. Yeah, and so I felt like for my mother, I wanted something better. And actually, the relief balm is a formula I had made for my mother that was like purely functional because the question was why can't I find a purely functional product? And so, only combining the ingredients that are botanical, organic, and natural that have evidence for these properties, I created this formula, which was for my mom, and then it sort of like grew from there. And I think I had the idea at that point to do something for to care give for people that suffer from chronic pains. That was like the first idea before it became holy me, but I really struggled actually to take the leap and and start . Why? Because so after I did medical education for pharmaceuticals, I helped my mother set up a hair loss clinic. She's an expert in hair loss, and she was going through major life transitions. And I wanted to support her in that. And you'll see this common theme in my life is just me wanting to help my mom. And so I I did that, and it did really well. It became the leading high end hair loss clinic in Europe, and when I had this idea, you know, looking back, I can understand now that my identity was so wrapped up in being her guardian angel, caregiver, you know, that anything that meant doing my own thing meant grieving the person that I identified as, and so for me to actually say, actually, I want to go on my own path, yeah, and because when I sat with it, I was like, you know, actually, my mission is to help people respond to their body's alarm systems in a really thoughtful way, right? Because what I witnessed is what happens when you always try to be superior to your body's alarm systems, right? Yeah, and feeling like we can do better, and if we take better care of ourselves, we can show up for everything else in our life. Yeah, and so that suddenly felt like a calling for me that I wanted to pursue, but I was devoted to taking care of my mother, and I felt like if I told her I wanted to do this, she would feel like I would abandon her. Okay, and that was really, really hard for me, and I refused to even verbalize that I had this idea. Yeah, but I had it in me, and it was like a lion in a cage, it was not allowing me to sleep at night. Yeah, I felt like I was. I wanted to suppress this thing that wanted to come into existence. Yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I, I really appreciate you saying that. Like you were, there was a lot of grief with the idea of. Pivoting away from caretaker to starting your own business, but a follow-up question there is: Do you feel like you were grieving the caretaker that you self-identified with, or was it also a little bit? It kind of sounds like you mentioned this. Was it a little bit of like feeling like you were going to be letting your mother down? Was it a little bit of both, or was it like, you know, if that makes sense? It it does. I'm reflecting on that because the reason I say the identity that I formed around it, I think the pain comes from the identity that you formed around it. Because if if someone's disappointed, well, maybe that can be difficult. Yeah, you know, but it doesn't stop you from life. Like if, if I were to tell you I'm disappointed that you're doing, I don't know, whatever. Yeah, whatever. Exactly. You'd be like, okay, right, right. You'd be like, okay, cool. I don't care, and you'd go on with your life. So I think the impact it has on you is because of the identity you've attached to it, right? And so it might be that somebody else, like a an aunt or an uncle or whatever, would tell me like I I don't think you should pursue this career, or I don't, or or you're disappointing me, or letting me down. I'd be like, I don't exist to please you, right? So that's fine. Yeah, that the the compartments are very clear in my mind. I think where it wasn't clear was I identified as as that. Yeah, right. And until I've actually understood that, I wasn't really able to like detach and become my own person. Yeah, if that makes sense. It makes total sense, and you know, I I have an experience like that very different because it was me stepping away from pursuing a race car driving career, right? So different, but you know, 20 years. So it sounds like a similar time frame of identifying as this type of person who's doing this type of thing and pursuing this type of goal. Grief is the way I describe the change as well. Totally, whether it's a choice, or otherwise, yeah. So I just-it's really fascinating for me personally to kind of hear such a different context. But it's-but it's the same, right? At the end of the day, it's-it's not so much the story; it's the way you've identified with the story. Yeah, no, completely. We bonded so much. Love that. So, talk to me a little bit. I liked what you pointed out that you originally developed this relief balm with purely the functional ingredients to make it helpful for your mom. So, what does it look like to then go from purely functional to consumer ready? And like, what are those differences? Because I don't think like because like when I purchase something in the store. I just think, okay, well, these are the ingredients that make it what it is. But like, how does it physically look different? Does it smell different? Like all of that. I'm super curious. It's it's really interesting. So I I started with like the research that I'd done. I put it all together, kind of like in a kitchen, right? And I just like made it myself. And then I had access to this small independent lab that because of the clinic, right? So I just like would do my little formulations, and from there, the the reality is the primary version of of the concept was to help people with chronic pain, which is no longer the case for , but that was the initial idea, and so I would do these. I was the idea was to do these like subscription boxes. Anyway, they had a lot of different things in them, but they also had an oil that had a lot of the formulations that I used for my mom. And I had done like I had gone on Facebook at the time, and I was like, "Who wants to participate in a little test? You know, and I would follow participants. So these were all people with arthritis, so severe chronic pain that I followed for a few months of trying this regime, and I would ask them, okay, what are your point of views? What's your pain score over time, et cetera? And all of them were like, we love this oil, except it's too oily. We want it to be less oily and like more of like a more of a texture to it, more like a balm. So I I actually from that feedback converted it into a balm. Okay, and then taking that into okay, I'm going to make a business out of this and make this balm an actual commercial product. I had to get you know I had to familiarize myself with the landscape, which I didn't know at all, and I had to have it like checked and approved the formula by like a professional toxicologist, make sure that all the levels are right, et cetera, within my formulation, which I was because of the research I had done, and then I had to find a lab to to do that, and and it's actually uncommon to do it this way, like to have a formula and to go to a lab. Most people are are not scientific founders and and maybe have an idea and will find a lab and will tell the lab, here's what I want to be able to say, and here's like the ingredients I'd like to have in it, and then the lab will. So I think if you go to any standard shop and look at the back of pack, you will see most formulations are the same with minor tweaks. They're not very different. So it's uncommon to go to a lab and say, "I have a formula. I just want you to produce it. Right, and so that was already a step that I found was difficult because most of the labs were like, well, that's not how we work. Yeah, I was going to ask, did that change the business relationship a little bit? Because it's it was hard to find a partner that accepted just doing my formula. Huh. And then once I did, which was a very renowned, amazing lab in France, was my first partner. I and I was also actually very true to myself. Like I'm quite obsessive, and I like to check things. And so I was like, "Well, if you're going to manufacture my formula, I want to see where you manufacture. And even that was a thing. Like a lot of labs are like, "Well, we don't allow visitors. It's not wild. It's wild. And then I found this one like pristine. They were super happy for me to visit, and I visited a lot of different labs across Europe. Yeah, and this one in France was, and I understand why you know certain like made in France labels are so you know remarkable. Like the standards of production were incredible. I have since found others, but I I started with them. Right, and then you know then you have another step of like, well, we source our ingredients, the lab, right? And except I had done before even going to the lab with my formula, I had done my formula, so I had found the partners that I like for the ingredients, and as a scientist, I can actually understand the biochemical profile of the botanicals, and so the one that I had found was like from Provence in France, and they had a patented way of extracting the botanicals that protects the bioavailability of the ingredients. And I had gone again to a lot of different farms where they harvest these botanicals and how they extract them. So I really had done like from seed to shelf. I wanted to see it all, and so I had found my dream partner for the botanicals. And so then it became really important to me that no matter who I go with as a lab partner to mass produce, that they could do my formula and use the botanicals that I had sourced. Yeah, and so I found one, and they were like, okay, fine. You want to do it this way? That's okay. So they've accepted to do it my way, and then and then the process begins, right? So they start doing it first in like a small lab, the same way that I would to approve everything. But then I didn't know all the steps you have to take. So you have to do stability testing, which takes like 12 weeks, where they check that your formula is stable over time, and then they do compatibility testing. So they check that the formula that is stable now over time is compatible with the packaging that you've selected over time. So there's a there's a lot of different steps beyond that, and then you have to have like a responsible person, which is the address that you have on packaging? So, in order to be a part of these, to to release topical products in the market, you have to register and you have to prove with every ingredient, every evidence, and you have to have a responsible person on all packaging with an address where there's this file that exists that is everything that is in your formula, and is that typically you as the founder? Is it the lab? Is it no? So you can you can hire an agency to be to be your representative. Okay, you can be yourself at the very beginning. Actually, I'll tell you a funny story. Yeah, at the very beginning, I was like, well, let's keep things simple. Let's just put my home address. So it's you don't put your name you put only name and you put your home address and I'm like it's fine like it's it's gonna be fine what's the big deal right so I just did that and so my first products had my home address on them I'm freaking out over here like that makes me so anxious hilarious and then like fast forward actually years it was still my home address, and then like it happened sometimes that some people would contact me and be like, "Is the shop here? I wanna, I wanna purchase something. And I actually had like a couple of people that I said, "Actually, I live here, but I'm the founder and I have some products. So they came over. We had tea. Like it was nice. And then one day, I have someone call me, and they're like, "We're downstairs, but it's not like a shop. And I'm like, "Oh, sorry, okay. I come down. I'm like, "Hi, it's it's not a shop. It's an it's an office. It's actually my home. And and there was these like two very strong men, and they were like, "We're looking to buy some of this. This they show me on the phone, and I was like, I mean, okay, it's not a, it's not a store, but I have stock. How much do you want? I'll just I'll just sell it to you. No, I had one of those like Azadel card machines. I was like, I can sell it to you. Say, how much do you have? And like founder, I'm like, I have how. However much you need, right? How much do you need? He's like one second. He like calls his boss, who turns out to be this like sheik from the Middle East. Oh wow! And they had discovered my brand at the Harrod's Pharmacy in London, and so he's like, "She, do you have 100 of of the bomb and 100 of the salts, and like imagine the salts. This is a tiny sample I brought you, but they're one kilo. So if you want 100, it's 100 kilos. Right, that's extremely heavy, right? And I'm I'm walk walk up. Anyway, I I tell him I I don't have 100 units here in my apartment, but at that same day, we had a Christmas fair. Oh wow! Like convenient, not that far. And so I tell these total strangers, I'm like, I don't have them here, but I have them close by. Do you have a car? And they're like, Yeah, this is our car. And I'm like, Okay, can you take me with you? I'll take you to our stand, and you can buy them there, and I was like, "But how are you gonna transport them? He was like, "Don't worry, we have like a private plane that will take all of this. Oh my gosh! I ended up like, but then after that experience, I changed the address. Yeah, yeah. We don't need like two random dudes just showing up at our apartment. No, no, no. That's so cool though, and that must have been such a like. Was that a kind of pivotal moment for you in terms of like business growth, or just in like your how you viewed your own business, because like it was like such a relatively large, or just like just getting that relatively large order from like international people that you. It was really nice. I think as a as a founder, and maybe you relate to this. I feel like I, all like the goalpost is always for them. I always feel like I'm not far enough. Yeah, that's something I always have to deal with. Yeah, and every time I'm like, once I win this, it's gonna be and I I do have this. You keep moving. The goalpost keeps moving, and I'm consistently feeling like I should be further. I should, you know. I try not to be like that, but I get that. I have it. Yeah. So you change your address to the responsible agent somewhere else. At that point, where you mentioned that you were selling in markets and in the Harrods pharmacy, how did you get into Harrods initially, I for retail I think it's such a persistence game. Yeah, and I would go to the Harrods as an example. I would go to the store. I would befriend the staff. I would ask for the buyer's details. You know, so I tried that. Then I it would not work, and then they would tell me just bring samples. We'll give it to the buyer. I would bring samples, give it to the buyer. I wouldn't get any feedback. Nobody would respond. I would find the buyer's details on LinkedIn. I'd reach out on LinkedIn. I think eventually, from sending a lot of emails, I got a we're not interested. No, right. And then I went on to. I just kept trying. I think I sent them a few updates. Like I know you said no, but like here's what we're doing now, and here's where we launched. And then I went to this trade show, and I went to this trade show with like very little cash remaining in our account. It was a very critical point in the business. Yeah, and I went to this trade show with a few buyers in my mind. Of like, these are the ones that I'm targeting, and I learned everything about them. As I I went on LinkedIn. I searched them online. Where were which university did they go to? What did they study? They're doing incredible research. Yeah, incredible research. What are they into? What are they applauding on LinkedIn? How long have they been in their positions? Where were they before? I wanted to feel like we were family. I knew them, right? So I had done my research, and I had these like flashcards with their picture, their name, everything, so that if I saw them, I just knew them. Yeah, and that's how I won both Whole Foods UK and Herons. Oh wow! So at that trade show, I had my, I had my actually, I the stand itself is a whole story because I was running low on cash, full transparency. I had like 5000 pounds left in the account. Yeah, and I remember calling a but and I had already paid for this the booth. I had I remember calling a bunch of different companies that help you create your booth for the event, and I actually had a large space. I just didn't have enough money to like build the stand, and everyone I contacted was like, "You're crazy! A, you're too late. You're too you're too close to the event. Even if I could, even if you had the cash, you're too close to the event. And secondly. Like what you're asking for would normally cost like 20,000 upwards. Like no way, and I kept calling, I kept calling, I kept calling, and I kept being like, "Hey, this is my chance, and if I do succeed, I'm asking you to invest in me. If I do succeed, we'll do a lot of trade events together. We'll do a lot of things together. I just need one person to believe in me, and this one company was like, you know what, I'll do it, and they did an insane stand for me. Like we looked like we were succeeding. Oh, amazing! It was an incredible, incredible experience, and so I went knowing that this is this is all I've got. Yeah, you know, at this point, I had tried a lot of things, and I was like, "This trade show is everything, and I knew those buyers were going. Yeah. So I had prepared gift boxes with handwritten notes addressed to each buyer that I had at my stand. I had emailed all of them hundreds of times before, but I was like, "I know you're going to be there. Here's my booth number, and I have a gift for you if you can come by. And I see one of the buyers, the Whole Foods buyer. I see the Whole Foods buyer from super far, but because I'd done my homework, I recognize them, right? And so I scream at the trade show, Killian. At the time, his name is Killian. He's left. He's done something else. Yeah, Killian, and he turns around, and I'm like, Come, bestie, come here, literally. And so he's like, "I must know her, right? Right. So he comes, and I give him a big hug, and I'm like, "So nice to meet you. And he's like, "Okay, I thought that was right. And so I just like told him I knew he he was into rowing, and I knew he was at Whole Foods and I spoke to him and I was like I've been trying to reach out to you. I've left you some samples and I pitched him the thing and he just felt so you know it's very different face to face like when you hear the story when you hear me explain the products it is a different experience and then he was like okay no we absolutely have to have your products in your stores and then the buyers from Harrods, same thing. They were dropping by, and I was like, "Oh my God, hi! I've been in touch with you, you know. And I and I showed them the brand, I told them the stories, and I told them how it would fit in their stores, and that I've been many times, and blah blah. And so they were like, "This totally works, absolutely. And so that's how I got them. Oh my goodness! So lots of follow up. So first, for anyone listening who doesn't know Harrods, it's a luxury department store, right? In in the UK, and so a few things were so cool. So one, with the company that created your signage and like all of the booth and everything, I think that like there are studies out there that show that a lot of times guys are hired on potential, and women are hired on or promoted on like what they've accomplished, and so it's very cool to hear that you did have someone who yes essentially worked with you on your potential, and were they excited like with everything that happened? It was amazing, and we did so much after together because then I did these pop-ups at Whole Foods, these activations. They did them, and then we did so well at Whole Foods that they were like, "Okay, we're going to give you the largest window display. Yeah. And then they created our window displays, and then they created these like on-shelf displays for us. And so we actually yeah stayed true to our word. Yeah, and did so much together after, and then they're building their exposure and their relationship. So that's such a cool thing. And then the other thing that I really appreciate is like you did not play it cool. Like and there, and I think that's amazing because I think that especially when you're trying to break through into a crowded space or you know you're trying to get something off the ground, like if you're not as the founder exceptionally enthusiastic and extremely prepared and thorough in your research. Like, why would someone? I mean, especially like if you're not connected, not in the space, all of that. Like, why would someone want to invest in you? And so I think that that's so great that you shared because like you have to think it's the best thing out there, and you have to have that confidence that it's the most amazing product that they have to have. So for sure, and also always remember, like we're dealing with humans now, yeah. And human to human, we can we can connect, we can understand each other. You know, we can support each other and persist until you find your people. Yeah, yeah, and I think you know something that I focus on a lot, and I share in keynotes I give is the importance of like being intentional about how you carry yourself and how you make that first impression because that first impression when you screen someone's name from across the trade show is gonna leave an impact, and so like everything from eye contact that you make, how you dress, how your how your body language is. So true. Are there any things to that point that you have intentionally worked on on your journey as a founder and a business owner in terms of how you try to appear outwardly? I think I'm very true to who I. And in that sense, I'm lucky that I, I am extroverted in a way. I'm also introverted. I always say when people ask me, "Are you extroverted or introverted? I'm like, "Depends where I am. Totally depends. Depends on the people around me. Depends on everything. Yeah. But I, I would say that I've had to learn to share more openly. That's that's true. I haven't been the biggest shift for me has been to share more openly. So I think within my circles, within my community, I am how I am. But I've always been very private. My my family is very private. I've been raised very private. My friends are very private, and so it was absolutely not common. And I was never surrounded by influencers or people that were public. So that was something that took a very long time for me to get used to so speaking my story as true, yeah, my experience without worrying about how it's going to be received or even what my family might think about me speaking, yeah, my my story. That was like the biggest growth muscle, yeah. And then I only recently opened up my social media account to be public. Yeah, and that was a growth. I remember at the very beginning, I was terrified. Everything I would do was terrifying to me. Yeah, and now I'm just like I just share. I don't overthink it. Yeah, I don't think I have a proper strategy. I just share. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, how do you, to that point, how do you kind of approach your company's public presence in social media and your own? Because I think you see founders take very different approaches. Some founders are really involved in the marketing and the branding of their product, and others are less so. What has been your initial approach? How are you? Is it evolving at all? It evolves a lot. At the beginning, I was very attached to, and you know what? I think even the brand, the branding changed a lot. Yeah, you know that the branding changed a lot, and I think it was really a reflection of who I was as a founder back then. Can you share that for people listening, for sure. the The branding originally was very muted. It was very clinical and it was very scientific. So it was sort of off white with a logo on it, and it was very simple, very neutral. And now, when you look at it, I'm gonna pull this product up. Go for it. Whoops, watching. Oh, I'm wearing a really similar color to it. I got to move it away from me so that it stands out more. There's more storytelling on it. There's there's I own the brand side more, and I think when I started, and why I say it was a reflection of me is it was muted the way I was muted. I was very attached to being a scientist and very attached to be incredible, and so I wasn't so focused on the story, the emotional aspect, the branding aspect as much as I was on having formulations I could stand by that were extraordinarily effective, and that was it for me. And so as I grew as a person, I grew as a founder, and the brand has grown simultaneously. And I think that eventually I reached a point where I was like, okay, actually, the mission of the brand is beyond the products, and it is my mission as a person, which is to share how powerful true, authentic care is right. You can't care for anything or anyone if you're depleted. And in order to care for anything or anyone, you have to respond to your own body's alarm systems. Once you've done that from overflow, you can take care of others. And so this idea that care is a powerful force is something that I struggled to own for a long time because I I was so judgmental and more about myself. I was like, "Is that too cute? Is it soft? Is it this? Is it that? No, no, no. We're scientists, you know, double blind studies only. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it took a long time for me to own what I actually stood for beyond being a scientist that makes good formulations, and so that transformed a lot. Yeah, in in the packaging, in the storytelling. Yeah, and then the we changed all packaging. We changed all of that, and it was reflected on our like social media. And then the other part, which is the the me opening up and not just having only a brand page came from well for years people have told me you should be the face of your brand more, and I kept on being like, well, plenty of people have succeeded not doing that, and so I didn't. But really, that was fear, right? Fear of owning my voice, fear of being seen, fear of being judged. And so I kept on being like, "I'll do it. It's fine, just not now. Or I'll do it a little bit on the brand page. I'm not going to open up my own page. And I think what allowed me to shift that was a shift in perspective. Rather than it being a business strategy, it became, well, you expect people to trust your products, right? You expect people to go to a shop and trust your products for their health and well-being, right? It's only fair in a world where there is so much noise. There are so many products out there. It is only fair that people know who created these, why they created it, why should they trust you, what was the intention behind it, yeah. And so, if you ask anyone to trust your remedies with their well-being, they deserve to know who you are. How do you live? So, it that mindset shift allowed me to be more of service and transparent rather than trying to make the business succeed in that way, which was harder for me. Yeah, and now that I do it that way, I'm more just sharing from that place. Right, and I actually share everything. I share my personal life. I share my love life. I share my thoughts. I just share it because I think it's important for people to know who how I live and how that is in alignment with what I put out in the world. 100% And am I correct that you you did your big launch during COVID or right after COVID? Was it in was it in? Well, I like to call that a soft launch. Soft launch. Okay, there we go. Actually, a solo launch because I I launched my products, my my balm and COVID happened, so it was lockdown. So imagine being a brand that has no following, that has no history, that has no reviews, that has no social media content, that has no visuals, that has no branding, that has nothing, launching during absolute lockdown when every single big brand out there with history, with big budgets have now gone online. Yeah. So the cost of acquiring a customer is impossible, and you really couldn't do anything, and you didn't know how long that was going to last. Yeah. So you also couldn't take major risks because really the the key then was just don't die. That was the only thing. Yeah. Just don't die. Yeah, and so I I think for two years, 2020, which is when I received the stock to 2022, that was a write off. I mean, I was like, I was just I launched for myself. Right, right. No, totally. So at what point did that brand revamp happen? At what or what year was that? That was one year ago. Oh, so recent. Okay, because I was also going to say that I think everything that you mentioned about you know people needing to trust the brand and trust who is behind the brand. I think that feels particularly particularly resonant right now when so many people are hungry for in person interactions, and especially post COVID when so many of us were isolated, it makes sense that that the realness of who is creating this product becomes even more important. And you know, knowing that you you'll build a niche of your your core consumers and and customers, and it will grow because some people resonate with you. Some people need the product itself. Like it, it really helps set a really great stage for you to continue growing. For sure, and I can see that, right? I can also see when I'm at a trade show or at an event or at a pop up, I can see that you go from being super busy with your life, not wanting anyone to bother you, I'm wanting to pass by. To I'm able to somehow say something to you that will make you stop, and you will have gone from I'm so busy and don't bother me to I want everything that you make forever in my life, and and even that's extremely valuable feedback, right? So from those face to face, I learn so much about what it is that makes someone stop, and then that feeds also how you speak on your the content you create, the newsletters you send out, right? Because I've gotten really valuable feedback from "Don't bother me, I don't know who you are, to you know, I said something and it made you pause, right? And those are those are really important feedback. Also, so actually being close to your customer, yeah, is is a real gift. Yeah, totally is. And to that point, with feedback, once you got bigger and were in these bigger retailers, did you have you evolved the core relief bomb based on customer feedback since then, or has it maintained pretty close to the original formulation that you launched in these stores with? The formula for the relief balm is exactly the same as the one I made from my mother. That's incredible. It's never changed. The packaging's changed, but the formula is exactly the same. Amazing. What I have done is produce new SKUs based on the feedback that people have given me. Tell me about them. So I have the the bath salts because people love bath salts and they're really good for them. And it's like a nice first step. You soak, then you apply the balm in your targeted area. So a lot of people were like, I apply the balm after a bath. Yeah. Right. So you responded to that gap that you're not filling, and then the soothing oil, which you just showed earlier, is an oil that I produced because people were like, "I love the balm so much. I want to smother my entire body in it. Right? Except the balm, we don't change anything. It's the color of the botanicals. is has a green tincture to it; it looks a little bit green, and also it's it's quite thick, and so you're not going to put that all over your body. And then people were like, "Oh, but I'm worried that if I wear white linen, it's going to stain my clothes, or I'm worried that when I go to bed, it's going to stain my bed sheets. And so we're like, "Okay, there's a need for an a product that's for your full body, and that doesn't concern any staining, right? So a lot of the essential oils that are in the relief balm are also in the soothing oil. But you also have almond oil, grape seed oil that are completely transparent. So there's absolutely no color to this oil, but you can use it to nourish your skin for your whole body rather than like a small tube that you can't do your full body with. So suddenly you had a spa at home that was three steps: you take your bath, you use the balm for your concerned targeted area, and you nourish your entire skin with the soothing oil. And that was from the feedback. And then also we had feedback of people that were like, "I love the balm, but it's rich in some essential oils that are not recommended for pregnancy, and during pregnancy, your body transforms completely. Everything is contraindicated for pregnancy, and so we created a pregnancy care range. We did an oil for pregnancy and bath salts for pregnancy. Wow! So it really is like keeping that connection with the customer, getting on calls with them. I've gotten on hundreds of calls with customers and making sure we continue to serve their need as we grow. That's that feeds the rest of the range. Yeah, I have a follow up that we're going to come back to about producing new products once you've already established self versus the original relief bond. So we'll come back to that. But before I forget, and I wish I'd asked this earlier, you created these for severe arthritis amongst other conditions that are chronic, what are the key symptoms that you hear your customers are trying to alleviate when they come to then use your products? Like, what does it feel like in the body, and like your products are the right answer for it? That's a great question, and and we've really, even though my mother's arthritis was the source of it. It's really not the okay. The the the aim is not for arthritis. Like I use my products every day. Okay. The aim is really for people to tune into their bodies and listen when your body is asking you for attention. And so that can be you sit behind a desk a lot, and so you get neck and shoulder tensions. Or I have a lot of runners. Actually, a lot of runners. They get runner's knee, and so they use the balm for runner's knee. Or tennis players because they get tennis elbow. But then I have like cases that you never know who ends up using it for a while. Like the one thing that surprised me the most is I found out that dentists in London have been recommending the balm for jaw clenching, what? Yeah, and so they're like just rub it in in your jawline before bed, and because it has anti-inflammatory botanicals, it relaxes the muscles, and eventually you stop clenching. And so that was like the. But I've had people with trigger finger or Achilles pains or neck and shoulder migraines. Yeah, you know, so people do end up using it for a lot of things, also for like skin, you know. So eczema psoriasis. So there has actually been a plethora of reasons why people are using this. Although originally it was for my mother, I use it for my lower back. I use it on my knees. Yeah. So it's more, where is my body asking for attention? And honestly, there's a lot of evidence for the power of touch alone, right now. Use you use the power of touch where your body is asking for attention, with botanicals that have evidence. Now you're actually taking care of yourself rather than popping pills. When the primary reason for chronic liver failure in the U.S. is Tylenol use, you know, and people are popping painkillers because it's readily available because it says pain on packaging right and that's like a whole other you know discussion we can have which is about compliance and all of that but yeah so that's that that answers your question there's many different ways of using it yeah well thank you for bringing me samples because I'm having some finger pain because of how I hold my phone, so we'll report back. But so excited. So then, going back to the the other question I was curious about. So with the bomb, as you said, you you had created the formula. You went to the lab. I'm like, this is my formula. This is let's make sure it works this way. These are my suppliers, essentially. So once you started expanding the product range, did. Did you develop these new products with that same approach, or did that shift? No, it's the same approach. Okay, I kept the like. So the the thing with us is, I strongly believe that our products are as effective as they are because of this obsession for quality and the full control over the supply chain and the sourcing of the ingredients. So knowing how pure and potent they are, yeah. So that's been true always. Amazing. It's become like how we do things. Yeah, and then what you're known for, and so what we were talking about earlier. That's what customers and and just followers and the community that you're building will then come to expect and trust. Yeah. When you think about the future of and how you've already expanded the range of people who can use it, and the type of caretakers who use it for themselves, essentially put their oxygen mask on before helping others. When you think of you know 10 years from now, what do you hope for Wholyme ? My biggest hope is that we help millions of people globally take better care of themselves. That is my biggest hope, right? I hope that people get better at taking care of themselves, so that they can show up for everybody else. And you use the example that I use all the time, which is we all like care is what fuels our human existence. We're only here because we care for each other, right? And the point is, you have to take care of others. So you put your mask on, not, and then it doesn't end there. You don't then go. Now you put your own mask on. You put your mask on so that you are now equipped to help many people, right? So I hope we can give people the tools to take better care of themselves, so that they can show up for everything else in their lives. That's the North Star. No, I love that, and I think that, especially you seem like cognizant of everything that's going on in the world and around you. So, being able to adapt to what people need to achieve that goal through , I'm excited to now follow along and and and figure out where you go from an operations and this is before we get into our closing segment but from an operations perspective, what were some of the kind of unexpected challenges that you came across from an operations perspective? What was so much? Yeah, I bet. I bet. There's so much. I think the biggest pain point that I had was actually compliance. So I I don't know if that's so much operational, but because you were limited to what you are allowed to say. So say if my primary idea was to have something on the packaging. I now was not allowed to because of compliance, and that was that was the biggest infuriating point because I was like, we're very clean, effective, kind, good product, and I'm not allowed to say things only because the pharma world has decided to take ownership of a word, call it pain. They took ownership of a word that is not a medical condition. Pain is not a medical condition. Pain is just your body's language. Yeah, they've taken that and they're like nobody other than the medical space is allowed to use this word. I did not know that. So there was a lot of compliance issues around that, and then I got the MHRA, the medical health regulatory authorities, come after me because I had something on my website that they didn't like, and then they they I had to make a bunch of changes to like packaging a website and communications because of this, which felt unfair because it's. I feel like it's misleading to the user, but so that was like probably the biggest point. And then you have operationally countless things. I mean, one of the one of the examples is I wanted my formula untouched, right? And so when they they tried testing it in the lab, it was fine. But then when it came to mass production, the tube the oils would run into because it's hot poured into the the packaging, yeah, and then it becomes cold and it becomes this formula. The tube, because of my consistency was so specific, it would it would cool in the tube and then it would get stuck. Oh, and so they were like, well, we need to put more of this ingredient or less of this ingredient, and I was like, no, I like the consistency as it is. So we had to have the lab manufacture something that heats the tube on the way, so that it could stay, so I could protect the integrity of my formula. See, and this was countless because then I insisted on I want everything to be certified by the Soul Association, which is the lead certifying body in Europe for organic and natural products, and they actually great to have that logo. I now have so much respect for everyone that has that logo. They audit your entire supply chain from start to finish, and they're super rigorous. And the first jars that I had ordered, bought, purchased, they. With the lab for production, then I went to get the certification to Soil Association, and they were like, "The jar is fine. The lid is using a lining between the top of the lid and the end of the lid that we don't approve. So I now had to like send that all back, negotiate that. So there were countless wow yeah incidences, and so technical question here. So when you go to mass produce, and that tube was then was that was the tube getting cold because it was like a longer tube than what you had done the smaller production at? Well, the small productions you're not putting them in machines or anything. You're not pouring it in a jar and then you're pouring it in your little thing and you're like everything works. You don't even think about the yeah the tubes and the. So then, feel free to not answer this if you don't want to. But so then, when you have to tell the lab, okay, we got to heat up the tubes. Like, is that your financial responsibility? Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. There we go. So like the number of like relationships and like who's responsible for what seems so complex. So that leads me to the last question: What did your team look like when you were like, "We're making this a business, and what does it look like now? Like in terms of the team on the company, it was just me. So the biggest one to start. We're gonna make just we're gonna make a business was to me. Yeah, we made a business, and then I I hired along the way. It's still a small team, and actually AI does help a lot to keep things lean. Yeah, and I like this approach to keep it lean. Yeah, and I think we can do so much with a small team these days. And I hired them. I mean, my I call her my star Georgia. She's my first team member. She's been with me for four years. Yeah. She came to a trade show as like a sales rep, not a trade show, a consumer show. Yeah. And she had messaged me like, "Oh, can I really can I come? Your brand looks amazing. It's so in line with the way that I live my life, she came. I introduced her to the products, and she started selling that day. And I just loved her energy. She was, she's so calm. She's very spiritual. She's a very calming presence. And I think day two of this event, I said, "Would you be willing to work with me? I can't afford much. It's basically a sinking ship at the time, and and I have no idea if it will. But I can give you this much, and I need help desperately. Would you start next week? And then she was my first one to be crazy enough to say yes. So what was her role like? She started as like sales rep, yeah, and now she's brand manager. So cool, and she like gets the brand. She helps on so much. She's in LA right now. Nice. We're normally in London, so we're like dividing and conquering. And then I hired, but like doing job posts on LinkedIn or whatever things like that, or a friend recommending someone. So that's that's how I built the team, but it's a team where like care is at the core of everything we do, right? And we care about each other deeply, which is really nice. Well, and I think that companies that have that big vision statement and then clearly embody it for every step and every part of the process, like, are so aligned and intentional, and clearly set up that foundation for future success. So this is this has been so informative. Thank you for getting into the supply chain and everything from the manufacturing perspective, because I think it's so interesting and it's clearly been proven over and over again how important that attention to detail and discipline with sticking with your guns, because I think that also can probably be hard for founders where you know you have this idea of how you want to do something in established entities. We're like, no, it should be done this way. Like that's got to be tough. So sticking with your guns and proving that you should stick to your guns, I think is really inspirational, for sure. Oh, so cool! Well, we're gonna get into the closing segment. I like to ask each of my guests to complete the sentence if I'm honest, and it's just meant to be parting wisdom to the listeners. So, if you could please complete the sentence if I'm honest. If I'm honest, I. I love what I do. I am proud of how far we've gotten, but I always feel behind. I always feel like it's not enough, and I'm very hopeful. I have a lot of belief, but I'm equally scared and uncertain all the time. Yeah. Well, as we've got two other people who have founded stuff in this room, and I think we were just talking about this before you got here that it is. It's so scary, and you're constantly thinking about what else needs to be done, and that you could be doing more. And then you also need to take care of yourself. Oh my goodness, and not like beat yourself up for not not feeling like you're at the goalpost that you're trying to get to. So it's so actually side note: like how do you balance that? How do you make sure that you're not beating yourself up about not being as far along as you want to, or do you beat yourself up and you're just like, we're gonna roll? It's really hard. I do compare myself, you know. I I do compare myself to people who are further along. I com I I haven't even told him this, but I compare myself to my partner who's had a very different journey, who's also a founder, also in wellness, also in consumer good. So it's really hard not to. Oh my God, that's a whole nother conversation. Yeah, it's hard not to compare yourself, you know. And sometimes I'm like, oh well, I feel like I'm hustling a lot, and like some people maybe hustle less and succeed more. Is that a mindset thing? Is that a me thing? Is it you know? Is it luck? Is it luck? Is it? I think there's a lot of luck. 100. There's the intangibles, and so I think I do that. And when I catch myself in there, I just try to ground myself into the reality of, hey, I'm not done. It's not. It's not done. I'm work in progress, and it's definitely in the right direction. And I remember doing this open water swim once, and it was very, very long, and I thought I could. I was looking ahead at where I was supposed to get to, and it was extremely far. And so I thought I'll never make it there. I might as well go back. I turned around, and I was extremely far from where I was, and that was a bit of an aha moment. Of hey, this is how life is. Sometimes you feel like you're so far from your dreams, but can you pause and look back and see how far you've gotten from where you were? Wow! And for me, that's been really helpful to ground myself in like, okay, maybe you're not there, but you're also not there anymore, right? And so I find that helpful, and then my I preach what I I practice what I preach, and I my self care is fundamental for me. I really do take a lot of care of myself. My mornings are mine completely, and I you know have my exercises and my stretch and my breathing and my thinking and my journaling and using my own products. And so I was gonna say, do you take a bath? Yeah, I have a lot of me time. Yeah, in the mornings, that is my church. I it it takes me through every day. It it helps me show up as a better person every day. And so for me, that is like unskippable. I I need it. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing. I got goosebumps when you were talking about the swimming out and then realizing how far back, especially because like it's a visceral reaction to being in water. Because I think like water is very scary. I think water is terribly scary in nature, the ocean, whatever it is. So that was such a like vivid analogy for me. So thank you for sharing. We're gonna end on a quick rapid fire. If you are honest, what? Well, you kind of just answered this question. What time of day are you most productive? Mornings. Yeah, I figured based on based on the routine that you have, which is so disciplined and great. Are you more likely to cook dinner, go out or get delivery to get my partner to cook dinner. Oh, I love that! I love that. My husband cooks us dinner all the time, so that's my answer. No, it's not. I I like very simple. Like I'll toss a salad or something. I prefer doing something simple. Yeah, I get that. So, which of what you just described is your favorite wellness practice right now. Morning routines are my favorite. Yeah, the whole thing. The whole thing. Like it's and it's super short. You can do it in half an hour to 40 minutes. All of it. So there's a five minute journal, which is my boyfriend's company. But I start with that. So you start with gratitude. Then I get out of bed and I do the breathing exercises, which are really short, and then I do some stretches, really short, and then I do a seven to eight minute, what do you call it, cardio circuit, and then I do my ab circuit, just specifically for my abs, and then I take my shower, and then I oil. I use the oil for my whole body and the balm for any areas of concern, and I'm done. 30 to 40 minutes. That's it. And I did it all. Journaled, taking care of touch my whole body and and my movements. It's amazing. That's great. Such a it like sets the day off so well. Do you prefer hot or cold weather? Hot. Yeah. You've missed a wonderfully hot New York summer because it's been awful. I know most people hate it, and I'm just like I don't mind being sweaty and bothered. I love heat. Good for you, love that. Last, if you're honest, what's something that you're grateful for right now? Oh, so much. I'm so grateful to be here with. You to have this opportunity, so thank you so much. And right before coming here, I was in Printemps, where they stock our products, and they have positioned them really beautifully. And the team loved it, and it's doing really well. And so, you know, it's our first partner in New York. So I'm really grateful for seeing also my remedies available to more people internationally. So I'm also really grateful for that. I'll say one more. You only said one, please tell me everything you're grateful for. And the last one I'm grateful for is my partner flew to be with me in New York for a few days because I'm away. I was in Denver, and then New York, and then L.A. And so he said, "I'll come and spend the New York days with you, and that's really grateful. And I'm really grateful for my team, without which nothing is possible, and everybody that supports me, encourages me, shows up for me, my family, my followers, my friends. Of course, beyond grateful. Oh, that's so cool. Although I think your flight pattern was a little not what it should have been with Denver, New York. I was like, I was like, could we not have done like LA, Denver, New York? But it's okay. Well, Celine, thank you so much for all of your very detailed and vulnerable storytelling that you did here today, and for the products that you were creating to help improve people's lives and their caretaking abilities. It's incredible, and we will link everything. But where would you like people to find you online? On our website. There we go. holyme.com. We will link that, and we can find you in stores. But can you pronounce printups the way that you did before we started recording? Oh my gosh! One day my French accent will be that good. I hope, but maybe not. Well, thank you so much for joining us, and I am rooting for you. Thank you. Very welcome, team. Thank you for joining us on If I'm Honest with Julia Landauer. I hope you enjoyed listening to this conversation as much as I enjoyed recording it with our guest. And if you like the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on your preferred platform to get new episodes when they drop. It would also be a huge help if you can leave a rating on that page, write a comment, and share the episode with someone who you think might enjoy it. As always, thank you for letting us be honest with you, and I'll see you next week.